I got an interesting question in the mail the other day, and I would like to share it with you. Anonymous 22 asks: Why is it that most crossdreamers seem to be sexually submissive?"While I haven't seen anyone definitely state such, it seems every AGP fantasy I've ever heard of, both personal fantasies and those in the form of written fiction, frequently use themes of submission as a component of the wish-fulfillment.
I've seen some people suggest this is so those who have such fantasies don't have to feel guilty about them, and also, as I think you may have spoken about on Crossdreamers, as the submissive element can sometimes function as a tie-in to femininity.
In addition, I have heard many personal stories on blogs, and such, wherein the writer suggests that in addition to being autogynephilic, he is also generally sexually submissive.
And of course, in the world of BDSM, forced feminization is a not apparently uncommon fantasy for male submissives; though I'm not one to speculate on the reasons for this; as someone is only somewhat knowledgeable of the specifics on that particular spectrum of human behavior. It might have more to do with the humiliation aspect of the practice.
So here is my question: Out of curiosity, have you ever encountered anyone who is both autogynephilic and tends towards sexual dominance in their fantasies?
It seems to be a very odd mix; as far as I can tell, I may be the only person who has both; and I tend toward both quite strongly. With 20/20 hindsight, I can trace both elements back to at least puberty; the AGP back even further.
As you might appreciate, it leaves me feeling a little left out amongst fellow compatriots. I have never had a single submissive AGP fantasy, and there is little that interests me less than even mild themes of forced feminization!"
Here is my response:
Yes, I have heard of others that do not fantasize about submission. As regards the TG fiction area, I have also read quite a few transformation stories that do not include this theme. Finally, when looking at avatars and personas used by crossdreamers online, only a minority stress the submissive streak. That is: they may write stories about submission, but the female persona they present online is not submissive.
This leads me to believe that submissiveness is not a essential part of M2F crossdreaming, and the fact that so many of us crossdreamers believe so may be due to gender stereotyping.
In our culture feminine is associated with submissiveness and masculinity with dominance, to the extent that even scientists look for these traits when studying men and women. However, anyone who bothers to lift their noses up from their peer reviewed papers and look around will see that women can be as dominant as men, and that real men can be as kind and loving as lambs.
Unfortunately, stereotypes helps us navigate a chaotic world, and most of us seem to be willing to accept a certain intellectual laxity in exchange for a false feeling of security following stereotypes may give us.
Another reason for the association of femininity with submission is our interpretation of the sexual act. We tend to describe the female act as "passive", while the male role is "active". The reason for this is that the man more often does the thrusting, I guess, and the thrusting part is considered active, while a woman's moaning, wriggling, scratching and bucking is considered passive.
Moreover, the popularity of the missionary position often puts him on top, and in our culture being on top is considered dominant. In real life, of course, the one lifting or upholding may be as important and influential as the one pushing, but we do not see that due to the symbolic nature of hierarchies.
So if a woman seduces a man, drags him back into her apartment, rip off his clothes... well, it does not matter if she is the one lying on her back during intercourse. She is still considered submissive. Women on top are not considered dominant, either, just sexy. Go figure.
It is also interesting to note that in our culture the one penetrating is considered the powerful one, while the one receiving is considered the vulnerable one. The woman requires trust and love to let a man inside her.
Again, this is a cultural interpretation. You may easily turn this interpretation on its head: The woman is the dominant one. She has full control over the man as she is the one that lets him into her body. The man, on the other hand, is very vulnerable as he is giving her control over one of the most vulnerable parts of his body to hers. In fact, many men feel a strong fear of the vagina dentata . This is a kind of castration anxiety.
So why do so many crossdreamer fantasies include submission? There may be many reasons. Here are some of my hypotheses:
1. Some crossdreamer are naturally submissive. This is a personality trait of theirs - a trait found among both men and women.
Men can perfectly well get away with being submissive in real life, but the M2F crossdreamers have an additional gender identity problem. This makes them overcompensate. They repress their submissive site in the face they show the world in order to hide their transgender condition, and this repressed libido returns in dreams and fantasies as forced feminization.
2. Some crossdreamer's personalities have a mix of submissive and dominant traits. Still, the submissive traits are more likely to be hidden in their public persona. Again, the repression forces the urge for surrender to resurface as feminization fantasies.
Given that submission and femininity are associated in our culture, it makes sense for them to let their inner woman play the role of the submissive one. They fantasize about being women, and they have been told repeatedly that this is the way women are supposed to behave.This may even lead to a strong envy of women: Women are allowed to be submissive, men are not.
3. Many crossdreamers suffer immensely from not being able to harmonize their inner personality with their outer presentation. As you point out, they also suffer from guilt and shame.
The forced feminization fantasies give them a space where they do not have to struggle with their desires. A scenario where they have to submit is a guilt free scenario. If their inner woman was accepted by society at large, the feminization fantasies would most likely change. I would guess that the female personality would become more proactive and dominant.
Which leads me to my conclusion: Being a non-submissive M2F crossdreamer is not that rare. There is something in your personality and life experience that makes the idea of submission less attractive. You have this in common with many M2F crossdreamers as well as many genetic women.
Another reason for the association of femininity with submission is our interpretation of the sexual act. We tend to describe the female act as "passive", while the male role is "active". The reason for this is that the man more often does the thrusting, I guess, and the thrusting part is considered active, while a woman's moaning, wriggling, scratching and bucking is considered passive.
Moreover, the popularity of the missionary position often puts him on top, and in our culture being on top is considered dominant. In real life, of course, the one lifting or upholding may be as important and influential as the one pushing, but we do not see that due to the symbolic nature of hierarchies.
So if a woman seduces a man, drags him back into her apartment, rip off his clothes... well, it does not matter if she is the one lying on her back during intercourse. She is still considered submissive. Women on top are not considered dominant, either, just sexy. Go figure.
It is also interesting to note that in our culture the one penetrating is considered the powerful one, while the one receiving is considered the vulnerable one. The woman requires trust and love to let a man inside her.
Again, this is a cultural interpretation. You may easily turn this interpretation on its head: The woman is the dominant one. She has full control over the man as she is the one that lets him into her body. The man, on the other hand, is very vulnerable as he is giving her control over one of the most vulnerable parts of his body to hers. In fact, many men feel a strong fear of the vagina dentata . This is a kind of castration anxiety.
So why do so many crossdreamer fantasies include submission? There may be many reasons. Here are some of my hypotheses:
1. Some crossdreamer are naturally submissive. This is a personality trait of theirs - a trait found among both men and women.
Men can perfectly well get away with being submissive in real life, but the M2F crossdreamers have an additional gender identity problem. This makes them overcompensate. They repress their submissive site in the face they show the world in order to hide their transgender condition, and this repressed libido returns in dreams and fantasies as forced feminization.
2. Some crossdreamer's personalities have a mix of submissive and dominant traits. Still, the submissive traits are more likely to be hidden in their public persona. Again, the repression forces the urge for surrender to resurface as feminization fantasies.
Given that submission and femininity are associated in our culture, it makes sense for them to let their inner woman play the role of the submissive one. They fantasize about being women, and they have been told repeatedly that this is the way women are supposed to behave.This may even lead to a strong envy of women: Women are allowed to be submissive, men are not.
3. Many crossdreamers suffer immensely from not being able to harmonize their inner personality with their outer presentation. As you point out, they also suffer from guilt and shame.
The forced feminization fantasies give them a space where they do not have to struggle with their desires. A scenario where they have to submit is a guilt free scenario. If their inner woman was accepted by society at large, the feminization fantasies would most likely change. I would guess that the female personality would become more proactive and dominant.
Which leads me to my conclusion: Being a non-submissive M2F crossdreamer is not that rare. There is something in your personality and life experience that makes the idea of submission less attractive. You have this in common with many M2F crossdreamers as well as many genetic women.
(I promised A22 to ask you: How many of you dream about being the dominant woman?)
"Out of curiosity, have you ever encountered anyone who is both autogynephilic and tends towards sexual dominance in their fantasies?"
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. A number of T-Girls are dominant. Haven't you ever heard of T-Girl and Shemale Dominitrixes?
In the T-Girl world, many gurls pair off with each other, instead of male or female partners. In fact, it's quite common amongst post-op transsexuals, who often find others like them are the only people available to them as mates.
Somebody has to be on top.
I love your blog. You are very good at finding the research, presenting it, and in my opinion drawing better conclusions from it than academia does.
But, you are woefully unfamiliar with the world many of us who are not in the closet inhabit.
That's not a criticism of you, just an observation from someone who has read everything you've written here so far.
Science requires field study, in addition to lab work :-)
In the T-Girl world, many gurls pair off with each other, instead of male or female partners.
ReplyDeleteI see this type of pairing far more than any other; at least where I live (Portland OR)
And you are right, someone has to be on top. I recall a conversation with one of my friends (who also happens to be a trans woman) about she and her friend Elle arguing about who got to be the botttom =)
often find others like them are the only people available to them as mates.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I think cis-women like Helen Boyd (of My Husband Betty) are extremely rare...so rare that you would get bit by a shark, struck by lighting, and survive a plane crash before you would meet one.
same goes for finding a cis-man that is not a creepy tranny-chaser
ReplyDeleteI may have submissive tendencies but I don't exclusively identify as dominant or submissive. I don't take a dominant role, ever, but I tease and use my charms to get men's attention. I excitedly take a dynamically passive role, and am 100% bottom. So essentially I am flirting with males to top me. I am a transwoman on her gender quest.
ReplyDeleteI know of several dominant crossdresser queens. I happen to adore one of the, Simone of the Modern Goddess blog, who shares my respect for fashion. She is in control, but also feminine.
I know several crossdreamers who are dominant in a more conventional sense, whips and leather and *yawns* blah blah blah.
http://bubblepopmei.blogspot.com/
@jamiegottagun
ReplyDelete"A number of T-Girls are dominant. Haven't you ever heard of T-Girl and Shemale Dominitrixes?"
Yes, I have even been discussing crossdreaming with some of them.
However, it was my impression that most of them are androphilic (man-loving) and not gynephilic as most crossdreamers seem to be.
It was my impression that most M2f transgender pairs were made up of two woman-loving transwomen.
But it could be that I have read too much of Blanchard and have given in to silly prejudices. Maybe this isn't much of a point anyway.
Jack, the pair I spoke about were both women-loving trans women.
ReplyDeleteOh no, Honey,
ReplyDeleteMy bestest gUrlfriend Glenda, the BIGGEST FREEKING t-girl you ever saw, also happens to be a perfectly normal, happily-married male, with 2-now grown adult daughters.
He is not submissive with his wife, and it is not an act, but just the way he feels when he is with her.
Blanchard, to put it mildly, as you have obviously suspected, is an over-educated moron.
He knows, as so many in academia: "Just enough to be dangerous."
I am feminine bisexual male and my reason for being submissive is same as that of Bubbleponei.
ReplyDeleteIt is certain that feminity is desirable and masculinity is to desire it, in the sexual arena game. That could be the sole reason why this trend occurs.
I like to be desirable in a feminine way and like to validate my femininity by being adored and flirted. Which naturally leads me to be what is called "submissive". But in reality, it is not submissive in any real sense. I think what we call as dominant and submissive are really not about power game. It is about who desires and adores and who wants to be desirable and narcissistic. Is not it, Jack?
Because men are the ones who usually desire and women and feminine males are the ones who want to be desirable, it makes sense that thr latter tend to bottom while men top.
I have seen a lot of submissive feminine males also have what the APA calls as SPD (Schizoid Peronality Disdorder), sometimes also, Asperger's Syndrome.
ReplyDeleteI have found this trait universally in the love-shy heterosexual feminine males as well as the feminine bisexual metrosexual men and almost a majority of them reported being 100% submissive. I have had discussions about this with numerous other psychologists and surprisingly, most have had similar observations.
Mary:
ReplyDeleteIt is my understanding that SPD should not be diagnosed if is due to the result of another condition, medical or psychological.
In your world, gender dysphoria, and or autogynephilia would be such a condition, wouldn't they?
After all, such conditions can cause detachment from social relationships and a restricted range of emotions in interpersonal settings, can't they?
A very many of us shut ourselves off from others, because it seems safer to keep our distance after the first few times we've been hurt. That's not because we are "suffering" from something, but because even the dumbest rat in the maze eventually learns from their mistake.
I think it is more just being jaded, than suffering from a condition.
Which would mean that you are either misdiagnosing these people, and considering a symptom a malady, or you're not actually a psychologist at all, and just playing one on the internet.
Jamiegotten,
ReplyDeleteYou are wrong if you think I am misdiagnosing people. Traits of SPD and even narcissism are common among many feminine males. I never said this is a pathological mental disorder. it could simply be a natural variation though.
Indeed, many feminine males take part in their own bodily pleasure rather than their partner's pleasure, which is the reason they are submissive. Straight men love to satisfy women sexually and emotionally, and these feminine gay and bisexual males take the role of women in order to get satisfied themselves.
Which indicates they have narcissistic traits coupled with SPD, making them highly self-indulgent.
Thanks for responding. Like I said, either you are misdiagnosing people or you are not actually a psychologist.
ReplyDeleteAnd you still did not address my point: SPD should not be diagnosed if is due to the result of another condition, medical or psychological.
Furthermore, SPD is a rather rare disorder. Estimated to effect less than 1% of the population. That makes it even rarer than GID, cross dressing, and transsexualism. yet, you claim, "I have found this trait universally in the love-shy heterosexual feminine males as well as the feminine bisexual metrosexual men."
There's something wrong there.
Besides, it completely disagrees with my own experience of submissive, feminine, heterosexual men, most of which seem the complete opposite to me of someone cold, aloof and indifferent, and with problems establishing personal relationships.
Just goes to show either what a crock of shit most psychology is, or whether you are indeed a practicing psychologist, which I more and more tend to doubt.
Mary,
ReplyDelete"Straight men love to satisfy women sexually and emotionally, and these feminine gay and bisexual males take the role of women in order to get satisfied themselves.
Which indicates they have narcissistic traits coupled with SPD, making them highly self-indulgent."
What a load of terrible crap!!
It seems you have something against feminine males so as to make such a bitter accusation.
SPD and NPD are traits which can occur to anyone regardless of gender. Besides, those traits of
"self-indulgence" which you observe in feminine males is not a case of narcissism, it is simply a a healthy feminine self-esteem which many women also have. Perhaps your denigrating this healthy vanity aspect of feminine males is simply because you devalue femininity itself and have a misogynistic agenda.
Your crap sounds very much like that of Bailey who once said that all females are bisexual and awefully complex human beings, while men are very innocent and simple with a strict black-white sexual orientation (gay/straight with no continuum).
You not only are a fraud psychologist, but also an activist with a specific misogynistic agenda. It is because of people like you that TG MTFs encounter such massive discriminations in society and are called as sick, perverted, obsessive freaks and what not.
What does "submissive" mean ?
ReplyDeleteMany people use this word but what does it imply to do and like ?
I bet that many people don't have the same definition.
I am not submissive in the way that I like to control what happens when I have sex with a man when dressed.
And when I chase men online I lead the conversation and decide how and when we will meet.
I like to wear nylon stockings, to play with my tits, to suck and to be fucked. And of course to think that I am a sexy woman when doing that.
I never kiss men, don't caress them, they are just living dildos who help me to make my fantasy of beeing a girl real and most of time I find them dumb
and unattractive and tell to myself that I would never be the girlfriend of such a loser if I was a girl.
Am I submissive ?
Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, sexually, yes; there are pitchers and catchers. You are a catcher.
It's been my own observation that in the bedroom, people are often the diametric opposite of what they are in the rest of their lives.
If so, you fit that characterization.
Just like the guy that is a big shot CEO with hundreds of people jumping at his ever whim, but once or twice a week pays a visit to a discreet dominitrix to sexually enjoy being the opposite of that.
Just one of the mysteries of human behavior. I wouldn't sweat it :-)
That's silly !
ReplyDeleteWhy the one who is penetrated is necessary submissive ?
Dear James,
ReplyDeleteYou as well as Anynymous yourselves prove that you have strong narcissistic traits which you express through your sexuality. Your taking the submissive role during sex with men suggests you get excited by the thought of people adoring you.
Yet Jamiegotten denies the link between male femininity and NPD and SPD.
Not all SPDs are effeminate males but all feminine males (including AGPs) appear to have NPD in association with SPD in greater or lesser traits.Women are narcissistic while men love to pleasure them. You take the role of women to get pleasured.
Your denying of reality is not going to make you people appear less pathological.
Mary,
ReplyDeleteHurray! You finally spit it out! It took a lot of prodding and pulling on my part, but as soon as you mentioned SPD, I knew that's what you "wanted" to say: That we're "pathological."
I thought you would say we're schizophrenics, or future ones, but you out did yourself, and fell right in and proved that you ARE DEFINATELY NOT a mental health professional.
No mental health professional would make such a sweeping statement based on nothing more that a few comments on a blog.
Jamiegotten,
ReplyDeleteYou still have not found any points to refute my observations. You simply are trying to avoid them because you are afraid of owning it up.
Why? Because you know deep down that you have narcissistic traits which make you submissive sexually.
Women do it all the time, and you all effeminate males are the same.
For some reasons best known to you alone, you like to get constantly satisfied by men sexually and emotionally.
Women have an avolutionary advantage in doing this- they are supporting reproduction. But when a man does it, it is not something to be taken in a healthy and positive way because it goes directly against the evolutionary principles. It makes no point for a man to want to be submissive as he is to penetrate and must be virile and pervert.
I am narcissitic but thinking that it implies to like to be penatrated and so submissive is silly.
ReplyDeleteNarcissistic people like to rule and so don't feel submissive.
I don't feel submissive in my relation with people or in bed with women.
Plus you can seduce many people even if you penatrate, no need to be penetrated to attract many people and feed you narcissism. A man who needs to have sex with many women can be narcissistic and feeds it with beeing a play boy !
When I am penetrated I rule, I am not submissive, I decide what the man will do. I feel powerful. His is my toy. My dildo. So I am submissive to what ? Nothing !
May submisive to my sexual pulsion but not to the man that fucks me !
"Women are narcissistic while men love to pleasure them"
ReplyDeleteThis is silly. Men only want to stick in their dicks, ejaculate and sleep. And if they want to please a woman, it is only by narcissism, to feel like real men but they don't care about women's feelings.
That's why they are macho and cut clitoris in many countries !
Plus if they only want to please women, that makes them rather submissive not dominant.
Dominant people are interested in their own pleasure. Submissive care more about the pleasure of the others.
"Women have an avolutionary advantage in doing this- they are supporting reproduction"
ReplyDeleteWhere is the advantage ? This is what killed women's sexuality and why they have been told that they must not like sex (to avoid to men to raise tha babies of the neighboors)
The women have the advantage that most men like to fuck them so when a woman wants to get a dick in her asshole it is considered as normal (despite the fact it will make no kids) and even encouraged !
While when a men wants the same, it is considered by not normal as most men don't want to do this or at least can not tell it in public because society tells that they must love women because societ need soldiers and taxpayers.
Mary,
ReplyDeleteAnonymous hit it right on the nail. Even if I assume you for real,your flawed observations here reinforce my belief in why our psychological sciences have been thus far so highly miserable in portraying issues of gender and sexuality (of both men and women) with true colors and why at the most, a majority of so called modern scholarly treatises on sexuality and gender are nothing more than stupid stereotypes.
"Women are narcissistic while men love to pleasure them"
I was reading a good book on this which says it is ONLY the feminine males (who are not gay), who love to please women because they are the only males who genuinely like women. The rest of straight men just create a facade of this not out of feelings for women but only to reinforce their own masculinity. This is because our hegemonic heterosexist patriarchal society has made "satisfying and loving women" a chivalrous red-blooded masculine trait of men to prove their manhood (because very wrongly, red blooded heterosexuality is associated with being masculine, so that, even the most masculine gay man is considered sissy and the most feminine Justin Bieber becomes a "hot man" just because he is into girls), although it is totally artificial.
I am feminine bisexual and most of my feelings for women are way different than those of my masculine peers in college who use women for bragging their masculine prowess with the girls. While I can gauge subtly that I like women far far more than these men could ever do, I however fail to get the girls simply because I don't feel like acting like a dick.
Psychologists have been constantly skewing true facts and figures in order to serve social patriarchal interests which has led to this mess.
You think feminine males only like to get fucked. But you don't even bother to look at countless feminine males who genuinely like to please women to their heart's content and love them so sincerely. Because you are fed all this bullshit by crap scientists like Bailey who I believe are both anti-woman as well as anti-man.
ReplyDeleteAnom,
ReplyDelete"Dominant people are interested in their own pleasure. "
I agree with this. And that is why you always hear the term of the masculine man being dominant on bed. Because, his real intention is not to love women but to just brag his own masculinity.
feminine males who like women,however,when they penetrate women,don't do it out of dominance but out of full submissiveness, out of real love for the woman.
But,our flawed sciences are reluctant to highlight these issues.
Hi. I'm a bio-male who cross dreams about being a woman most of the time. In the few fantasies in which I am my male self I am always submissive.
ReplyDeleteWhen I'm cross dreaming I'm pretty much always dominant, but also on some occasions submissive.
"in, this is a cultural interpretation. You may easily turn this interpretation on its head: The woman is the dominant one. She has full control over the man as she is the one that lets him into her body. The man, on the other hand, is very vulnerable as he is giving her control over one of the most vulnerable parts of his body to hers."
I actually see it EXACTLY like that. Have done so for as long as I can remember. In my mind the female "devours" and the male is "devoured". Even in the rare cross dreams where I am submissive and "get taken" I still see it that the male is the vulnerable one.
I wonder if there is anyone else out there that feels it this way? Surely there is?
I would like to add to my previous comment that I have no idea how I came to view it this way.
ReplyDeleteIt's completely counter-cultural.