Virginia Prince played an important role in the development of trans narratives made by trans people. But she was a child of her times and ended up confirming transphobic and homophobic ideas.In my post When four tribes go to war I argued that transgender separatist -- i.e. groups that try to define themselves as substantially different from other transgender people -- become separatists in order to be recognized as normal people.
They want to fit into society as it is, to the best of their ability. In order to do so they have built a wall between themselves and those that do not, in their opinion, pass as normal women or men.
It seems to me this is partly a struggle for control over language.
It can get really bad.
The tactic revealed in that blog post also shows that they are deliberately constructing a unified enemy image that is to make the reader believe that there truly exists some kind of transgender conspiracy of people. All "transgender" are part of this conspiracy, and its members share a wide set of common beliefs.
Anyone who have followed the discussions at this blog will know that the group the CTs call "transgender" have a lot of different opinions as regards the origins of the crossdreamer condition, the nature of transsexualism, the role of nurture vs. culture and how they look upon Blanchard's theories. Most of them are not affiliated with the LGBT movement, and a minority is gay.
Still, I can understand why someone can come to the conclusion that there is a conspiracy uniting Blanchard & Bailey supporters with crossdressers and crossdreamers. They are not making all of this up.
As you can see the choice of the word "transgender" as an umbrella term for gender variant people was unfortunate, as the "classic transsexuals" now can claim that it means the same as the word invented by Price. It clearly doesn't.
"Transgenderist" is a term for a male to female transgender person who lives as a woman, but who does not undergo genital surgery.
Again: There is no reason to believe that the the "classic" trans women lie when they say that they feel a complete alienation from their male bodies. Heck, I am not a trans woman, but even I feel a complete alienation from my male body.
I have no problem at all sympathizing with their pain, and I truly believe that the most sensible way of describing that feeling is that you are, indeed, a woman trapped in a man's body. One may discuss the cause of this feeling, but the phenomenon itself is well documented.
What Virginia Prince did, was for all practical purposes to deny this experience, arguing that it is impossible due to the fact that gender is a social and psychological construct. It is not inborn.
Prince did say that there is one group that can benefit from sex reassignment surgery, namely sexually and socially inadequate asexual boys:
"Since we have a vertically stratified society, with men above and women below, less is expected of women. Thus surgically reassigning a person like this to the sexual and genderal status of female and woman greatly reduces the disparity between expectation and performance and would probably render the individual a happier and more productive citizen." ("Transsexuals and Pseudotranssexuals", Archives of Sexual Behavior, vol. 7 no. 4 1978)
This paragraph was probably not intended to be as sexist as it sounds today. Virginia was reacting to the social facts of her day. Still, arguing that socially awkward boys are the only ones that will benefit from sex reassignment surgery is a slap in the face of those trans women who are truly alienated from their male sex organs, and who cannot find peace with themselves before this incongruence is rectified.
The idea that less should be expected from women sexually is ... eh... how shall I put this... absolutely ridiculous?
The core problem is that Prince turns the gender identity question into a purely cultural one.
I believe this is why some trans women refuse to be associated with transpeople who do not follow the rules of traditional behavior, being those male to female "crossdressers "or transsexual sex workers. The first group may be defined as fetishistic or paraphilic men; the other may be explained to be sex crazed feminine gay men. The operative term is "men". The very existence of these groups is seen as a threat, as they may undermine the trans women's possibility of being respected as ordinary women.
"Classic transsexuals" (CTs) define and redefine their definitions in order to keep out trans women associated with the "unclean". The androphilic "transkids" use science to keep the much coveted natural femininity for themselves. And, as I will show you in this post, "crossdresser" activists have been feeding this dragon of antagonism as well.
Controlling language
It seems to me this is partly a struggle for control over language.
To give one example:
The "classic transsexuals" (and their later variant, "transmedicalists") – i.e. trans activists who see themselves as "real" men and women as opposed to other gender variant people – are trying to take control over core terms in order to avoid any suspicion of them being the same as crossdressers and effeminate gay men. They do this by limiting the definition of the word "transgender" to their own taste and by associating it with the groups they despise and want to avoid.
Then they start attacking people who use the term "transgender" in the all encompassing way, arguing that they being included in such a group is insulting. By establishing that the term "transgender" is offensive, they manage to offend the other party while at the same time appearing as the victim.
It is a brilliant ploy, I must admit.
The enemy of my enemy
It can get really bad.
In 2009 one of the CT blogs, Enough Nonsense, revealed the strategy in an amazing post called Allies and a recent skirmish. The post tells the story about the establishment of an Internet group that is to challenge the TG "at every opportunity":
"We are coordinated. We act. We respond. And, we do so consistently, persistently, and reasonably. Our group is growing and we've succeeded in shutting down threads spouting TG [transgender] non-sense... To us, rewriting GLBT [gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender] as GLBT/TS is just a further manifestation of transgender…and is no revision whatsoever.
Any type of political association to transgender…is transgender.
Any defense of transgender strategy…is transgender.
Any alliance whatsoever, on any plane, at any level with the transgender…is transgender.
Any compromise with regard to the transgender…is transgender.
The friend of our adversary…is our adversary.
Our adversary is not our ally…and we certainly know who our adversaries are."
Not only do some of these CT activist resent any association with the hated transgender (or the LGBT movement for that matter), they also systematically trawl web conversations in order to make their adversaries shut up.
A unified enemy image
The tactic revealed in that blog post also shows that they are deliberately constructing a unified enemy image that is to make the reader believe that there truly exists some kind of transgender conspiracy of people. All "transgender" are part of this conspiracy, and its members share a wide set of common beliefs.
Anyone who have followed the discussions at this blog will know that the group the CTs call "transgender" have a lot of different opinions as regards the origins of the crossdreamer condition, the nature of transsexualism, the role of nurture vs. culture and how they look upon Blanchard's theories. Most of them are not affiliated with the LGBT movement, and a minority is gay.
It makes sense in a sick kind of way
Still, I can understand why someone can come to the conclusion that there is a conspiracy uniting Blanchard & Bailey supporters with crossdressers and crossdreamers. They are not making all of this up.
In fact, the idea that both androphilic transkids and gynephilic crossdressers belong to the same tribe makes some kind of sad sense when you read some crossdresser philosophy.
The reason for this is found in the writings of Virginia Prince.
I can say a lot of positive things about the late Virginia AKA Charles Prince, the leading crossdresser guru and philosopher of the 20th century.
She did a lot to help crossdressers and crossdreamers find an identity and a voice. She has also helped other transgender groups through her activism. She functioned as an adviser to Harry Benjamin, probably the greatest scientist in the area of transgender and transsexual studies ever.
Virginia Prince
I can say a lot of positive things about the late Virginia AKA Charles Prince, the leading crossdresser guru and philosopher of the 20th century.
She did a lot to help crossdressers and crossdreamers find an identity and a voice. She has also helped other transgender groups through her activism. She functioned as an adviser to Harry Benjamin, probably the greatest scientist in the area of transgender and transsexual studies ever.
I believe she was onto something important when she argued that crossdressing is the way the suppressed feminine side of a man find its expression. I also believe she was right in saying that all men and women have both a feminine and a masculine side to their psyche.
Still, there are parts of her writing I find weak and unfounded. What's even worse is the fact that she played her own game of exclusion, which again helped fuel the transgender wars.
I have read some of her published papers, and what I find there explains why some "classic transsexuals" have come to hate the "transgender" as the plague.
I have read some of her published papers, and what I find there explains why some "classic transsexuals" have come to hate the "transgender" as the plague.
It does not matter how much I try to read her text in an understanding manner, the final conclusion is that she did not really respect M2F transsexual women. She did not accept their experience of being complete women as valid.
I must admit that this may sound strange, given that Prince for large parts of her life lived as a woman. She even modified her body to that effect. She legally registered as a woman. She took hormones. But she refused to define herself as a transsexual.
The femmiphile
I must admit that this may sound strange, given that Prince for large parts of her life lived as a woman. She even modified her body to that effect. She legally registered as a woman. She took hormones. But she refused to define herself as a transsexual.
Instead she developed a elaborate philosophy where she established a new kind of man: the "femmiphilie", a man that manages to transcend the borders between the genders. In earlier papers Prince used the word "Femme-Personator".
In short: She accepted the idea of gender dysphoria (i.e. the idea that a man can have an inner need to express the cultural behavior of women), but she rejected body dysphoria (i.e. a feeling of having the wrong body that is inborn and not a result of psychological or cultural factors).
She even came up with the term "transgenderist", which applies to MTF people who adapt their bodies by hormones and other means, but who avoid genital surgery.
In short: She accepted the idea of gender dysphoria (i.e. the idea that a man can have an inner need to express the cultural behavior of women), but she rejected body dysphoria (i.e. a feeling of having the wrong body that is inborn and not a result of psychological or cultural factors).
She even came up with the term "transgenderist", which applies to MTF people who adapt their bodies by hormones and other means, but who avoid genital surgery.
She played a central role in establishing one of the first transgender organizations, the Hose and Heels Club, which became the Foundation for Personality Expression (FPE), which later again became part of the Society for the Second Self or Tri-Ess.The FPE was limited to married heterosexual men, and excluded homosexual men, male-to-female transsexuals, and XX women.
The historian Susan Stryker argues that the membership restrictions of the FPE was geared towards "protecting the privileges of predominantly white, middle-class men who used their money and access to private property to create as space in which they could express a stigmatized aspect of themselves in a way that didn't jeopardize their jobs or social standing."
Stryker continues:
"Prince herself took the leading role in driving wedges between transvestite, transsexual, gay and lesbian, and feminist communities, and she did not envisage an inclusive, expansive, progressive, and multifaceted transgender movement." (Susan Stryker: Transgender History, Berkeley 2008)
Transgenderist vs. transgender
As you can see the choice of the word "transgender" as an umbrella term for gender variant people was unfortunate, as the "classic transsexuals" now can claim that it means the same as the word invented by Price. It clearly doesn't.
"Transgenderist" is a term for a male to female transgender person who lives as a woman, but who does not undergo genital surgery.
"Transgender" is an umbrella term covering a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups that diverge from the normative gender roles that the surrounding culture expects will follow from the sex of their bodies.
Some say the word transgender was first used in this new sense by the female to male transsexual Leslie Feinberg in 1992, others by Holly Boswell in 1991. They did definitely not define it in the same way as Prince understood the term "transgenderist".
Virginia Prince advised against unnecessary surgery, arguing that these conditions are more a question about cultural gender than biological sex.
According to Prince, "Womanhood is a gender phenomenon not a sexual one and moreover it must be learned by living, whether by a natural born female or by someone newly assigned to that status... Surgery can provide the genital alteration but no psychosurgery exists to construct a woman in the gender sense."
By saying so Prince is actually refuting the idea that there is any kind of inborn female identity (beyond the one that is common for all men and women). This explains partly why so many of the classic transsexuals are so adamant that surgery is needed for someone to be considered a true woman. This is a reaction to Prince saying that such surgery is not needed.
By defining surgery as a prerequisite they are establishing yet another absolute measure for not being a "transgender". After all, Prince was the princess of all "trangender", and she did not want SRS!
Against surgery
Virginia Prince advised against unnecessary surgery, arguing that these conditions are more a question about cultural gender than biological sex.
According to Prince, "Womanhood is a gender phenomenon not a sexual one and moreover it must be learned by living, whether by a natural born female or by someone newly assigned to that status... Surgery can provide the genital alteration but no psychosurgery exists to construct a woman in the gender sense."
By saying so Prince is actually refuting the idea that there is any kind of inborn female identity (beyond the one that is common for all men and women). This explains partly why so many of the classic transsexuals are so adamant that surgery is needed for someone to be considered a true woman. This is a reaction to Prince saying that such surgery is not needed.
By defining surgery as a prerequisite they are establishing yet another absolute measure for not being a "transgender". After all, Prince was the princess of all "trangender", and she did not want SRS!
There is more to sex than culture
Again: There is no reason to believe that the the "classic" trans women lie when they say that they feel a complete alienation from their male bodies. Heck, I am not a trans woman, but even I feel a complete alienation from my male body.
I have no problem at all sympathizing with their pain, and I truly believe that the most sensible way of describing that feeling is that you are, indeed, a woman trapped in a man's body. One may discuss the cause of this feeling, but the phenomenon itself is well documented.
What Virginia Prince did, was for all practical purposes to deny this experience, arguing that it is impossible due to the fact that gender is a social and psychological construct. It is not inborn.
The sexually inadequate
Prince did say that there is one group that can benefit from sex reassignment surgery, namely sexually and socially inadequate asexual boys:
"Since we have a vertically stratified society, with men above and women below, less is expected of women. Thus surgically reassigning a person like this to the sexual and genderal status of female and woman greatly reduces the disparity between expectation and performance and would probably render the individual a happier and more productive citizen." ("Transsexuals and Pseudotranssexuals", Archives of Sexual Behavior, vol. 7 no. 4 1978)
This paragraph was probably not intended to be as sexist as it sounds today. Virginia was reacting to the social facts of her day. Still, arguing that socially awkward boys are the only ones that will benefit from sex reassignment surgery is a slap in the face of those trans women who are truly alienated from their male sex organs, and who cannot find peace with themselves before this incongruence is rectified.
The idea that less should be expected from women sexually is ... eh... how shall I put this... absolutely ridiculous?
The continuum theory
The core problem is that Prince turns the gender identity question into a purely cultural one.
She wrote:
"Next, let's consider how this gender thing got started. It isn't biological, it's cultural. Animal's don't have gender. While the possibilities of separating and perfecting characteristically different life styles for males and females has theoretically existed since the two different sexes evolved, it had to await the sophisticated development of a thinking and speaking animal to bring it into reality." ("The 'Transcendendts' or 'Trans' People", Transvestia, vol. XVI, no 95, 1978).
"Next, let's consider how this gender thing got started. It isn't biological, it's cultural. Animal's don't have gender. While the possibilities of separating and perfecting characteristically different life styles for males and females has theoretically existed since the two different sexes evolved, it had to await the sophisticated development of a thinking and speaking animal to bring it into reality." ("The 'Transcendendts' or 'Trans' People", Transvestia, vol. XVI, no 95, 1978).
Prince believed it was possible for a "transcendent" to move along the continuum between feminine and masculine because it is a cultural construct, and not based in biology:
"When one transcends that restriction, then, how far out along the continuum he or she chooses to go is entirely up to them for they are now free agents--at least as far as that transcendent barrier is concerned."
This paragraph explains at least partly why the classic transsexuals hate the "continuum" narrative of gender identity so much. It seems to leave no room for a trans woman to be a "real" woman or a person that identify 100 percent as a woman because she is born that way and has no choice in the matter.
The fact is that it is possible to develop a complex continuum theory with various combinations of inborn traits that does leave room for transsexual people, i.e. people who identify with the opposite sex, and not with some in-between gender position. But for that to happen you need to anchor at least the core of that sex identity in inborn biology.
"When one transcends that restriction, then, how far out along the continuum he or she chooses to go is entirely up to them for they are now free agents--at least as far as that transcendent barrier is concerned."
This paragraph explains at least partly why the classic transsexuals hate the "continuum" narrative of gender identity so much. It seems to leave no room for a trans woman to be a "real" woman or a person that identify 100 percent as a woman because she is born that way and has no choice in the matter.
The fact is that it is possible to develop a complex continuum theory with various combinations of inborn traits that does leave room for transsexual people, i.e. people who identify with the opposite sex, and not with some in-between gender position. But for that to happen you need to anchor at least the core of that sex identity in inborn biology.
Picture of Virginia Prince 1948, from A Gender Variance Who is Who. Plate 1 in JJ Allen, The Man in the Red Velvet Dress.
Why doesn't Prince do that? Her inner urge to become a woman -- and not some in-between gender variant -- must have been very strong. She did after all end up living as a woman, and not an androgynous person.
Why did Prince leave out biology?
Why doesn't Prince do that? Her inner urge to become a woman -- and not some in-between gender variant -- must have been very strong. She did after all end up living as a woman, and not an androgynous person.
The answer to this I do not know. There were psychoanalysts in her day that would have told her that gender identity is purely a cultural and psychological phenomenon. She was also inspired by feminists, and some of them would have told her the same thing.
The fact that she excluded trans women and a "homosexual" crossdressers from her club, may indicate that she was trying to create a space that would make it possible to unite the world of the All-American heterosexual married male with the option of expressing the inner woman. In order to reassure conservative friends and family members, she might have chosen to announce that she was not one of the outcasts. Separatism might have been seen as the solution to the problem of gaining social acceptance.
Prince's problem, however, is that she is unable to give a good explanation for why only some male bodied persons feel the drive towards becoming "femmiphile" ('lover of the feminine').
She argues that the "non-boy" or the "girl within" the femmiphile "was forced to reject in the process of growing up, asserts herself later on and demands attention and opportunity to exist--to live." That makes sense to me, but why does she appear in some men, and not in others?
If this is a cultural phenomenon and all men and women potentially can express the whole gender continuum, why don't all men become "femmiphile"? And why do some men feel the need to transcend the gender barrier completely and become "transgenderists", who Prince call "male women"?
Prince's problem, however, is that she is unable to give a good explanation for why only some male bodied persons feel the drive towards becoming "femmiphile" ('lover of the feminine').
She argues that the "non-boy" or the "girl within" the femmiphile "was forced to reject in the process of growing up, asserts herself later on and demands attention and opportunity to exist--to live." That makes sense to me, but why does she appear in some men, and not in others?
Male women
If this is a cultural phenomenon and all men and women potentially can express the whole gender continuum, why don't all men become "femmiphile"? And why do some men feel the need to transcend the gender barrier completely and become "transgenderists", who Prince call "male women"?
She wrote:
"In the moments immediately following their decision to renounce manhood for womanhood the tendency is to go as far into the feminine direction as possible both as an escape from and a flight into. However, as they mature in the new situation, most of us come to realize that our masculine past is still alive and well in the back of our head and actually provides the cerebral mechanisms and experience on which we must build on since we have not yet acquired much of the opposite kind."
This sounds like common sense, but Prince fails to take into consideration that many trans women have felt like women all their lives. They have not felt like "male women", but as women, and it is this sense of identity that has made them take the long and hard journey towards getting a woman's body.
"In the moments immediately following their decision to renounce manhood for womanhood the tendency is to go as far into the feminine direction as possible both as an escape from and a flight into. However, as they mature in the new situation, most of us come to realize that our masculine past is still alive and well in the back of our head and actually provides the cerebral mechanisms and experience on which we must build on since we have not yet acquired much of the opposite kind."
This sounds like common sense, but Prince fails to take into consideration that many trans women have felt like women all their lives. They have not felt like "male women", but as women, and it is this sense of identity that has made them take the long and hard journey towards getting a woman's body.
No wonder they do not want to be put in the same box as Prince.
Prince developed a typology of "so-called transsexuals". The first group are "those males who have been practicing homosexuals prior to surgery."
Prince's description is very much the same as the one given by Blanchard and Bailey. She in essence telling them that they do not stop being homosexual males because of a sex change operation. And to top it all:
"Since sex is the biggest motivation for change in such people, many of them were and remain prostitutes."
The so-called transsexuals
Prince developed a typology of "so-called transsexuals". The first group are "those males who have been practicing homosexuals prior to surgery."
Prince's description is very much the same as the one given by Blanchard and Bailey. She in essence telling them that they do not stop being homosexual males because of a sex change operation. And to top it all:
"Since sex is the biggest motivation for change in such people, many of them were and remain prostitutes."
This is exactly the same argument as the one made by Michael Bailey in his "Queen" book. Androphilic trans women are basically sex hungry effeminate gay men. No wonder they get offended.
The second group of Prince's is the sexually and genderally inadequate men, which I have already mentioned.
The third group is those that were acknowledged heterosexuals prior to surgery, often married and with children.
The second group of Prince's is the sexually and genderally inadequate men, which I have already mentioned.
The third group is those that were acknowledged heterosexuals prior to surgery, often married and with children.
Here's Prince again:
"In my personal opinion these people seek surgery because of a faulty understanding of the differences between sex and gender. Raised as boys and men, they have imbibed that male concept of women as sex objects to which Women's Lib so rightly and vigorously objects. That is, they see the definition of a woman as primarily a person with an orifice between her legs."
Again, this is the same argument as the one of Blanchard and Bailey.
"In my personal opinion these people seek surgery because of a faulty understanding of the differences between sex and gender. Raised as boys and men, they have imbibed that male concept of women as sex objects to which Women's Lib so rightly and vigorously objects. That is, they see the definition of a woman as primarily a person with an orifice between her legs."
Again, this is the same argument as the one of Blanchard and Bailey.
So the main reason for the CT Party believing that the transkids, Blanchard and me belong to the same tribe is that the leading transgender activist of the 1950's, 60's and 70's made the same arguments as Blanchard, labeling both androphilic and gynephilic trans women sex driven perverts. Since she was a crossdresser and coined the term "transgenderist" she has become the main authority of the transgender philosophy to them.
But the fact is: Virginia Prince was not a transgender activist. She was a separatist, just like the CTs and the transkids.
Update March 2012
For an updated and very comprehensive review of the historical use of the terms transgender, transgenderist and transsexual, see Cristan William's post on Tracking Transgender, the Historical Truth.
Update March 2012
For an updated and very comprehensive review of the historical use of the terms transgender, transgenderist and transsexual, see Cristan William's post on Tracking Transgender, the Historical Truth.
Selected literature
C.V. Prince (AKA Virginia Prince): "Homosexuality, Transvestism, and Transsexuality: Reflections on their Etiology and Differentiation." The American Journal of Psychotherapy, Vol 11, 1957.
Virginia Prince: "The 'Transcendents' or 'Trans People'", Transvestia, vol XVI, No. 95, 1978.
Virginia Prince: "Transsexuals and Pseudotranssexuals", Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 7, No. 4, 1978.
Virginia Bruce (AKA Virginia Prince): "The Expression of Femininity in the Male", The Journal of Sex Research, Vol. 2, No. 2, 1967.
Richard Ekins and Dave King: "Virginia Prince: Pioneer of Transgendering", International Journal of Transgenderism, Vol 8, No. 4, 2005.
Some of these articles can be found in: Richard Ekins and Dave King: Virginia Prince: Pioneer of Transgendering, The Haworth Press, 2005.
You can download these articles from the library of ANITW.
See also A Gender Variance Who is Who on Virginia Prince and Trans Political: Virginia Prince, The Passing of a Trans Icon.
Virginia Prince: "The 'Transcendents' or 'Trans People'", Transvestia, vol XVI, No. 95, 1978.
Virginia Prince: "Transsexuals and Pseudotranssexuals", Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 7, No. 4, 1978.
Virginia Bruce (AKA Virginia Prince): "The Expression of Femininity in the Male", The Journal of Sex Research, Vol. 2, No. 2, 1967.
Richard Ekins and Dave King: "Virginia Prince: Pioneer of Transgendering", International Journal of Transgenderism, Vol 8, No. 4, 2005.
Some of these articles can be found in: Richard Ekins and Dave King: Virginia Prince: Pioneer of Transgendering, The Haworth Press, 2005.
You can download these articles from the library of ANITW.
See also A Gender Variance Who is Who on Virginia Prince and Trans Political: Virginia Prince, The Passing of a Trans Icon.
I was careful to credit the 1948 photograph of Prince as from Plate 1 in JJ Allen, The Man in the Red Velvet Dress. Please do the same.
ReplyDeleteIt is almost the only early adult photograph of Prince. There are surprisingly few photographs in Docter's biography.
I will like to point out here that I am a feminine bi male and even I would strongly object if someone mentioned that my feminine feelings are culturally constructed and take cues from social roles of femininity, and that, I am just a normal man who is being extra greedy for feminine passions.
ReplyDeleteIt is one thing if someone told me that I have a dual gender inside,or that I am mentally androgynous gendered. But it is crude to suggest that I am a man with fetish.
Virgina Prince was NOT an adviser to Harry Benjamin. Prince might have believed he was an adviser but he was NOT.
ReplyDeleteIn Harry's book "The Transsexual Phenomenon" Prince is mentioned and clinically dissected with some praise for his work in giving insight from within the transvestite world but in no way was Prince either an adviser or teacher for Harry Benjamin. Prince was an interesting subject but Harry's world revolved around transsexuals.
Prince was appalled by transsexuals and he coined the term "transgender" to separate him and other so-called heterosexual transvestites from transsexuals and was totally pissed when the term transgender was initially ripped off by others.
I would suggest you read Harry's book at this URL:
http://www.transgenderzone.com/downloads/ttphenom.pdf
and tell me if Prince was an Adviser to Harry Benjamin. Prince had a self-inflated belief of his own importance and simply search for Prince in the document and read what Benjamin said. Harry thought Prince was just denying what he was
In a biography by someone taking care of Prince in his later years his claim of being an Adviser or teacher is beyond humorous but then at that time Harry was not around to defend himself from such folly.
L
What is the link between "inborn" and "sex dysphoria" ?
ReplyDeleteWhy couldn't one get a cultural sex dysphoria ?
Most transexual when they star thinking about surgery have no clie about who is Prince and do don't want to changed sex because he told that transgendrist don't need surgery.
To James =
What do you have against fetish ?
As you can see the choice of the word "transgender" as an umbrella term for gender variant people was unfortunate, as the classic transsexuals now can claim that it means the same as the word invented by Price. It clearly doesn't.
ReplyDeleteDid Prince coint transgerist or transgender ?
If he coint transgenderist for people who don't want surgery, why couldn't people who want surgery use transgender ?
If this is a cultural phenomenon and all men and women potentially can express the whole gender continuum, why don't all men become "femmiphile"? And why do some men feel the need to transcend the gender barrier completely and become "transgenderists", who Prince call "male women"?
ReplyDeleteBecause most people are conformist ?
Because most people don't have enough courage and intelligence to look into themselves and see that their are male and female and prefer the comfort or a lif of social clones ?
"What do you have against fetish ?"
ReplyDeleteKing, I have hardly any issue against the word "fetish". But, what I said was that I should not be called as a "regular man with a fetish". I should be seen as an androgynous feminine gendered male with a fetish. There is a difference in the way you would picture a regular man having a fetish and a feminine male having a similar fetish.
I also don't like to be seen as a regular straight man desiring a woman. I fall under the category of a "male lesbian" and wish to be seen that way when I am attracted to women or date women.
If you apply your head and think about this hard without considering the social binary structure of human gender, I guess it wouldnt take so much time for you to understand what I am trying to say. The point is I am not the same as a regular man, and when I am trying to highlight any of my attributes including sexuality, I am also simultaeneously willing to make my true gender orientation get revealed.
"Because most people are conformist ?
ReplyDeleteBecause most people don't have enough courage and intelligence to look into themselves and see that there are male and female and prefer the comfort or a life of social clones ?"
The problem is that you have yourself become a social clone by giving so much due importance to the gender binary system of "man" and "woman" dualities.
If you just consider yourself as a natural variation of the human gender spectrum, such as an androgynous/bigendered queen,rather than a "real man with a fetish" I guess, all your internal conflicts as well as confusions and self-hatred will go away. Because, the truth is that based on your feelings, you are not a masculine gendered man.
You are gender fluid and somewhere in the transgendered spectrum and not a "man with delusional fantasies" and that is simply healthy.
Saying all men feel this way but are conformists will lead you to as much self-hatred as when you say you are transgendered and people don't accept you for what you are. :)
Why do you have to put a label on you ?
ReplyDeleteWhy not just acting and stoping labeling ?
Why do you care how other people see you ?
If other people see you as a fetish man and you think you are a woman, where is the problem as long as you are free to believe that you are whatever your want and that you find sexual partenaires who wants sex and love with you knowing that you think what you think ?
Now you are being an idealist.
ReplyDeleteComeon, why shouldn't I have a right to have a right social identity?
Thank you very much for this blog. Now I understood something in my life. ^^"
ReplyDeleteJames, you're just like me, I never thought that I ever find someone simillar.
One of the most common trends I have observed in crossreamers with homosexual fantasies is that they are not really attracted to men in true sense but to the sexuality of men. :D
ReplyDeleteIn other words, their homosexuality is not a sign of true appreciation of the male physique, but similar to a woman's submissive desire for sex with men.
Well here is a lovely YA question I got to answer today. It explains the same phenomenon I have been experiencing for long.
ReplyDeletehttp://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AmNSu0KwiiyA8_SNygr73ADWDH1G;_ylv=3?qid=20110313013402AA2sMrT
Well firstly this is a very interesting posts especially with all the ideas and theories that it brings up.Firstly well there are groups that want to distance themselves from what they consider those that are not true transsexuals, and those that want to unite I really don't like the idea of either.
ReplyDeleteI don't like those who are trying to distance themselves because I think to a certain degree we are all the same. But at the same time I don't agree with those trying to unite. I don't think that crossdreamers or crossdressers are transgendered. While I think that they are in the same category. The reason is because I don't think that its as simple as just wanting to become the other sex i think that it more than that. I must admit that there are times where I say i want to be a women but I don't think i would truly be happy with that because then i wouldn't be a man and could not live that life.I think that as a group everyone must come together. Yes there are differences and they can be major but in the end we should be considered at least related to one another.
Also I don't just gender is something we learn though culture thou it does reinforce many things about it.And this does not explain those people who report feeling that they wanted to be the opposite sex since before they even knew any difference between them.
And yes there are parts of every person the are masculine and feminine its just the degree to which we feel and accept them.
GREAT post. And you just nailed it.
ReplyDeleteSultana: "In other words, their homosexuality is not a sign of true appreciation of the male physique, but similar to a woman's submissive desire for sex with men."
ReplyDeleteYes, I think this is right. Most M2F crossdreamers are not homosexual at the outset, but more like lesbians.
I bought some lesbian erotica from Amazon to see if there were any similarities between the lesbian fantasies and the crossdreamer fantasies.
If you go to the butch/femme sub-genre you will find fantasies that are more or less identical to the ones of M2F crossdreamers.
The M2F crossdreamers share the dreams of femmes, in that they have a copulation instinct that is receptive and --most often -- play the reactive role in fantasy love making.
There may be males in M2F crossdreamer fantasies, but in pre-ops they are mostly fantasy-figures.
F2M crossdreamers on the other hand report that they want to take the pro-active part when making love, "nailing him with my strap-on" as one of them told me.
I should note that many post-op transwomen who have reported crossdreams in the past, say that their sexual orientation can change, and that they can enter real life relationships with men at a later stage.
This tells me that this is more complex than people like Blanchard would like us to believe. I would guess this could be bisexuals who have suppressed their attraction to men at an earlier stage, and who are now allowed to feel such feelings.
James' link (thank you, James!) tells a related story: He is a bisexual who have had relationships with men, but who now want to have a lesbian relationship with a woman.
@L
ReplyDeleteI am sorry: Your comment was caught in the spam filter for some absurd reason.
"Virgina Prince was NOT an adviser to Harry Benjamin."
By using the word "adviser" I was not implying that Benjamin agreed with her.
Benjamin did meet her several times and does refer to her in his book, but where Prince's attitude towards transwomen is full of skepticism and disrespect, Benjamin shows compassion and respect.
Jack, Bravo on your blog and this latest article. T* is T* and the gender gifted cannot afford to hairsplit language while T* people the world over are killed or tortured or take their own lives because Mainstream society AKA "Normals" don't, won't and can't begin to understand us...Quiet frankly, the LGB umbrella chafes a bit too as most Lesbians would rather us disappear, and most gays think we are quitters.
ReplyDeleteWhoever we are, i think that the gender gifted need to unite...
Diana Howe
"Looking Forward, Moving Forward"
The reason they don't want to be confused with crossdressers is because despite all the surgeries, many of the HBS girls ain't all that in the looks and beauty department.
ReplyDeleteNote their lack of pics of themselves in HBS/WWBT world in their blogs
I'm just sayin....
and the raving self hate, transphobia and homophobia and off the charts foaming at the mouth hatred of crossdressers
You given me a lot to think on here. Thanks. Great insight into separatism. In general I think we all tend to gravitate toward like minds. Our prejudices create the segregation.
ReplyDeleteThough Virgina Prince has some interesting insights her inability to understand any innate biological connection in transsexualism is odd.
I think you are on to something in pointing out the cultural and social pressures of her time as influencing her stance. A sort of desperate need to justify her life to her people.
Where the lines of influence are with nurture and nature for trans behavior is most likely as diverse as nature and nurture are. Those who don't fit in the little boxes we have for them create all the mayhem. :o)
@Common Terri
ReplyDeleteI am glad you found it helpful.
I guess the tragedy here is that much of the suffering and the strife is caused by very human longing to belong and fit in. Some achieve that by expelling others.